They say it's not  polite to talk politics, especially among company you know might take  offense to what you say.

So pardon my impudence.

I want to talk about the death penalty. It's been a huge topic of current events lately with audience outbursts at recent political events and today's controversial execution of Troy Davis. We can even consider the celebration of millions of Americans after the capture and execution of Osama Bin Laden.

As I see it, any discussion of the death penalty inevitably comes with an elephant in the room, and perhaps people behaving like asses (sorry, my puns aren't as witty as Conor's). This has become a hugely partisan issue, leading to political stereotyping that, like most partisan issues, stymies actual discussion of the issue. So let's leave the ideology out, and we'd probably do well to try not to mention Texas (there's the one subtle jab I'll allow myself).

The death penalty is an issue deeply rooted in political and moral philosophy. Kant believed execution of criminals to be a matter of justice; in a polis founded on mutual agreement upon laws, to not permanently dispose of an offender was akin to condoning his crime.  The other end of the spectrum, of course, contends that the death penalty is immoral in itself. It promotes the kind of barbarism that laws strive to suppress, and carries with it the tremendous burden of acting on a conviction that has been established by fallible human intellect.

These arguments are simplistic, and I would be eager to hear from those who find themselves aligned one way over the other and wish to better articulate their view. However, I ask that in our responses we consider: 
  • whether the death penalty is ever politically necessary,
  • whether the death penalty is ever morally necessary, and
  • how our views on the death penalty are influenced by our religious views.

Let's apply that  theoretical PLS education in virtue of ours to a real issue. Respectful disagreement is very welcome; let's just try not to get personal.
Katie
9/23/2011 05:27:02 pm

If people are reluctant to reply so as to not argue with each other, I understand. It's a controversial issue, and perhaps amongst friends we feel inclined to quietly acknowledge and respect the differences that exist amongst us. My sole intention with this post was to get everyone thinking - truly thinking - about the death penalty and where your morality, politics, religion, and anything else that guides your life leads you in determining your stance. I hope that we all have been reexamining ourselves and these views of ours that have the power to so dramatically shape society. Thanks, everyone.

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Conor
9/24/2011 11:59:29 am

Katie,

You are an excellent punster. I think it is tough to start a discussion like this because it can get personal, and sometimes with our group it can be only the same 5 or 6 people having a discussion. I would like to hear from more people about this issue.

My view reflects the Church's teaching, namely that the death penalty is almost always morally wrong because all human life is sacred. The Church has been very good at beating people over the head with this teaching because it goes hand in hand with abortion. But the Catholic Church's teaching is a little more nuanced than that. The Church teaches that society does have the right to execute its criminals. If you were on an island with no means of imprisoning a murderer who threatened the lives of you and the others on the island, you would be justified in taking his life. So society does have that right, but should they/we use it in the U.S.A. today? If we have the means of incarcerating people for life, shouldn't we do that instead of killing them no matter how "humane" the means?

If I have incorrectly stated the Church's teachings, I apologize. I hope Tess will correct me if I did. So to answer your three questions succinctly, I believe that the death penalty can be politically and morally necessary, just not today in our country, and my views are heavily influenced by my religious views.

And don't mess with Texas. I live here now. I've got the boots and Texas driver's license to prove it!

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Lillian
9/26/2011 03:21:37 am

Can I take a moment to say how much I love and miss you all?

Sorry for my delayed response, I've been quite busy and unable to respond to blog posts as often as I'd like, though I try to read them as much as I can.

Conor, it is a little more nuanced - the Church teaches that the death penalty is always wrong unless there is absolutely no other way to stop a known aggressor from attacking innocent people. Church leaders have added to this the thought that in a modern society like the US, well-equipped with a strong prison system to restrain offenders, there is no real reason that the death penalty should still exist.

I agree with this, and I think the death penalty is a sad and unnecessary barbarism remaining from earlier times. Its continued use is, I think, supported by the sort of sentiment captured in the Toby Keith song Whiskey for My Men, Beer for my Horses (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1JOFhfoAD4) - a song I enjoy, but don't agree with ideologically.

Recent leaders in the pro-life movement have made a push to emphasize that "pro-life", as Catholics see it, means respect and protection for the lives of all human beings, even those of criminals.

I won't even get started on the number of people who were almost certainly innocent, even within the US, who have received the death penalty. Also, you may not know that it is millions of dollars more expensive to execute a criminal today than to jail him/her for life, owing to litigation costs. There is really no reason for the death penalty to still exist. (I wrote a paper on the death penalty for Goehring's class sophomore year, if you can't tell.)

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9/26/2011 03:45:41 pm

You guys are wonderful.

And I'm from Texas, too, Rogers. (imagine me glaring intimidatingly as a tumbleweed blows by)

I just went to the most INTENSE talk tonight by Juan Melendez (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Roberto_Melendez-Colon) who was on death row for 18 years, only to be released after someone took a closer look at his file and realized he'd been innocent all along. Our judicial system, while generally good, is still human and flawed, and I think it is so important that we take the precautions we need to to make sure that the innocent can be released if they've been wrongfully convicted and sentenced.

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Conor
9/27/2011 09:22:25 am

I find it interesting that the argument we keep coming back to is the taking of an "innocent" life, that is someone who is innocent of the crime. We haven't said much in the way of those who are mostly guilty of their crimes, which constitutes most of the people on death row. My parents are both layers and they put it to me this way - "We only catch the dumb guys." As much as we like our Hollywood stories, very few people are actually framed or set up.

Yes, you guys are right that it is tragic that our justice system incarcerates innocent people. One of the mottos of our justice system is something like, "It is better to let ten guilty men go free than to wrongly imprison one innocent man." So now I'd like to ask , what about those guilty people?

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Jack
9/28/2011 03:02:44 am

Conor, are you asking about the ten guilty men who free or are you asking about the guilty people who have been convicted? I'm not sure which group of people you're asking about with your last question. Either way it's interesting.

The way I see the death penalty debate is that it assumes the guilt of the convicted person. Obviously no one would ever say its OK to execute an innocent person. If we're talking about whether a person should be executed or not it's safe to say that the person did do what we think they did.

As to whether they should be executed, well no. They shouldn't. I think that the death penalty should only be used the way you guys have been talking about it: As a last possible resort to prevent someone who is extremely likely to kill again from doing so (the desert island example is perfect for explaining this). Since we no longer live on desert islands. SPOILER ALERT ONLY READ THIS PARAGRAPH IF YOU HAVE ALREADY SEEN 'LOST' OR IF YOU JUST DON'T CARE!!! Unless you're in a plane that crashes on a strange island and then there are polar bears and huge smoke monsters and a hatch with a crazy Scottish guy in it who can time travel and is trying to keep the island from exploding with a series of numbers that are the same numbers that the fat guy played to win the lottery and everyone is really really good-looking and first Kate likes Jack but then she hooks up with Sawyer but then goes back to Jack but then back to Sawyer and the fat guy likes the new girl but then she dies and there are all these flashbacks so you totally know all the characters through and through then the Others come and at first you think they're like cavemen but then you find out they're only dressing like that to fool you and they're actually a fairly civilized colony except they killed everyone from the Dharma Initiative so are they as nice as they seem but then Jack starts dating Juliet so Kate is like "Oh, OK I'm back with Sawyer now" and the bald guy the whole time is saying that its a good thing they're on the island and there's a guy with super powers and the smoke monster is his evil nemesis/brother who wears black and then some of them leave and then come back and then go back in time and Sawyer starts dating Juliet and then they get back to the normal time by blowing up a nuke (or did they?) and what is going on?!, would someone please tell me what is going on???!!!).

But we don't live like that. We live in a big civilized country with fast food and MTV and big manly cars and football is the only thing people really care about Kim KArdashian spent $17 million on her second marriage (it will last 8 months, tops)and Twilight and not one, not two but THREE Meet the Parents movies and The Jersey Shore somehow getting a fourth season and Two and a Half men somehow being the number one most watched show on TV and Ke$ha is allowed to be herself and Arrested Development got canceled because it was just too good and I want to leave.

So the death penalty should not be used. It's unnecessary and immoral.

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Jack
9/28/2011 03:06:51 am

By the way, my sincere apologies if I offend anyone by taking what had been a delightfully serious conversation and turning it into me rambling about other things in a non-serious way. I really do take these things seriously, but sometimes I resort to mediocre attempts at humor when talking about them. I think it's a coping mechanism. Who knows?


Anyways, I do take this seriously and I'm sorry if I annoy anyone.

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Conor
9/28/2011 09:44:39 am

Jack,

I almost died laughing from that post. As a huge Lost fan, I salute my water bottle to you. It's the same water bottle that I put in a creek and someone put their shoulder on me and said "Now, you're like me."

But yes I did enjoy your post very much. You are right about the problems our country poses, especially when the things like Kim Kardashian and Ke$ha get so much attention, when there are so many other things we should be focused on.

Thanks for pointing out that I was unclear. I guess I meant the people on death row that are 100% guilty. But now looking on that post, I keep wondering is it really better to let ten guilty men go free than to let one innocent man die. Suppose you had eleven men in custody and you know beyond a doubt that ten of them are murderers and one of them is innocent, but you have no means of narrowing it down. Could you really turn the key to that cell and say to them all "You're free to go?"

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Adam F.
9/29/2011 02:04:22 pm

This is a very complicated issue, which I am not prepared to deal with in short space. I agree with the Catholic Church's teaching on the death penalty, but I still think that it is justified in our present age. There is never a perfect prison system, and there is always the possibility that laws may change in the future which will allow for those sentenced to life to go free (look at what happened to the Lockerbie bomber in Scotland). Or the government could collapse, and somehow a new set of rules could be ushered in and those convicted of crimes could go free (I think this is a very real possibility in our lifetime-look at what is happening in the economy and the ineptitude of our leaders and the body politic-no democracy can survive in this condition of lack of virtue). The bottom line is that there is never a perfect way to ensure that prisoners are incarcerated for the rest of their lives. Thus, executing prisoners is the safest way to ensure that those guilty of heinous crimes never roam the streets again. With that being said, I think that the courts must require an extremely high standard of evidence ("circumstantial" is simply not enough). But to the best of my knowledge, there has never been a person executed who was later proved innocent since the death penalty was re-established.

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